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Post by fancollector12 on Jul 13, 2017 0:17:59 GMT -5
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Post by Noah C on Jul 14, 2017 11:03:07 GMT -5
I do understand why the Premium Select was discontinued, Vince. It didn't make sense from a business perspective in the lineup because it was simply too expensive ($400-500) to move units. The Crown Select isn't much more expensive, but it still has purpose due to its design being ornate/other than plain. If one is spending $400 and up for a new ceiling fan, JUST offering solid air movement and an uplight is too little of a deal, so the Premium Select had little selling points...especially over the Penbrooke Select, which looks arguably better, fits into more décors, performs identically, and is about $100-$150 cheaper than the Premium Select was. The Penbrooke Select is probably the best-selling K55-type ceiling fan on the market today, since it has most all of the desirable traits for a solid ceiling fan, and has a more appealing price tag, in the low $300s (which is what the Casablanca Panama XLP 4-speed pull chain model sold for). Not to mention, but the Penbrooke Select has the option of having an uplight or not. So, it makes no sense to continue to produce a product that is inferior to another similar product in what it offers as a whole, for an increase in price. Essentially, the Penbrooke Select REPLACED the Premium Select in the lineup, now serving as a high-end K55XL ceiling fan that has an appealing price for what it offers and can fit in just about anywhere, due to it being among the most customizable (if not the sole most customizable) fans produced today... You can change not only the basics, like the color and the blades, but there are numerous of control methods for the fan, the option of an uplight or not, the 4/5 blade adaptability; combinations for the Penbrooke Select are almost endless, and the thing sells like hot cakes. Showrooms can't keep em in stock. And yes, there is the EcoMotor version, but the K55XL version has more finishes and overall options while selling for a good deal cheaper than the EcoMotor version. Emerson is most likely going to keep the Crown Select and the Penbrooke Select, along with their EcoMotor fans. The Penbrooke Select has numerous reasons for why it isn't going anywhere anytime soon, and the Crown Select has one main reason: The fact that it's a high-end ornate ceiling fan that performs very well and isn't priced completely outrageously.
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Post by Noah C on Jul 14, 2017 11:13:09 GMT -5
Also of note: Even if Emerson does phase out the K55XL motor entirely, which they are highly unlikely to do in the foreseeable future, we will still have K55-type fans on the market, from Modern Fan Co. The number of K55-types in Modern Fan Co's lineup has increased, most recently in 2015, when their Pensi and Velo came out. That gives them six K55-type fans in their lineup: Industry: modernfan.com/fan/industry/Cirrus: modernfan.com/fan/cirrus/Cirrus Flush: modernfan.com/fan/cirrus-flush-mount/Pensi: modernfan.com/fan/pensi/Velo: modernfan.com/fan/velo/Velo Flush: modernfan.com/fan/velo-flush-mount/And we know these K55-type Modern Fan Co's have quite a low chance of being phased out, since Modern Fan Co is not a large brand in the way that Fanimation, Emerson, or Minka Aire would be. Also, K55-type Modern Fan Co's seem to have a lower current draw (Watts and Amps) than others on the market, while moving the same amount of air, due to the efficiency of 3 and 4-blade designs, half of which involved curved or arc'd blades.
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Post by fancollector12 on Jul 15, 2017 0:04:56 GMT -5
I guess we just have to accept the reality that DC motors (and even larger 188mm and 210mm/212mm spinner motors, GASP) use less energy and move more air than K55-style motors, and have more speeds, plus they're silent and virtually maintenance-free as opposed to K55-style motors that make a bit of noise and may require their flywheels to be replaced. For example, the new Direct Drive (spinner) Panamas and DC fans move more air than my XLP Panama (old style). I own an Emerson Midway DC ECO and am quite impressed with it due to its silence, wobble-free operation, and range of speeds with great airflow. I think in Modern Fan's lineup that only the Industry, Cirrus, and Cirrus Hugger have the K55-style import motor installed into them, actually. And speaking of DC motors, even Hunter's doing them now, with new DC motor-equipped fans (including an industry-first DC Low Profile fan that the name escapes me of right now) in their 2017 lineup. DC motor fans are right around the same cost as a K55 fan, and sometimes even less, and are more technologically advanced. It's just like how the LED bulb replaced the CFL bulb. Luckily a lot of us have contact with Tom Frampton of Fanimation, and influence the brand, which is why a lot of Tom's original designs (Islander and Palisades) still stick around with the FK2100 motor (Fanimation's K55 motor), so I don't see those fans going anywhere anytime soon.
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Post by Noah C on Jul 15, 2017 6:32:24 GMT -5
I guess we just have to accept the reality that DC motors (and even larger 188mm and 210mm/212mm spinner motors, GASP) use less energy and move more air than K55-style motors, and have more speeds, plus they're silent and virtually maintenance-free as opposed to K55-style motors that make a bit of noise and may require their flywheels to be replaced. For example, the new Direct Drive (spinner) Panamas and DC fans move more air than my XLP Panama (old style). I own an Emerson Midway DC ECO and am quite impressed with it due to its silence, wobble-free operation, and range of speeds with great airflow. I think in Modern Fan's lineup that only the Industry, Cirrus, and Cirrus Hugger have the K55-style import motor installed into them, actually. And speaking of DC motors, even Hunter's doing them now, with new DC motor-equipped fans (including an industry-first DC Low Profile fan that the name escapes me of right now) in their 2017 lineup. DC motor fans are right around the same cost as a K55 fan, and sometimes even less, and are more technologically advanced. It's just like how the LED bulb replaced the CFL bulb. Luckily a lot of us have contact with Tom Frampton of Fanimation, and influence the brand, which is why a lot of Tom's original designs (Islander and Palisades) still stick around with the FK2100 motor (Fanimation's K55 motor), so I don't see those fans going anywhere anytime soon. Good analysis, Vince. To be honest, K55-type motors are still very much relevant and are still third only to large spinner motor (172×20mm and up) and large DC motor (125×30mm and up) fans in performance. A lot of the K55-type motors' applications nowadays are ones where a rubber flywheel is not used, due to said flywheel being replaced by a metal hub of some type, designed for specific blade types; said K55-type motors are used often in high-end, high-performance fans with too narrow motor housing diameter to fit a higher end AC spinner motor, that don't instead use small DC motors because of the lack of power of a small DC motor compared to other, larger motors. The newer 188×20mm Panama, in 52" configuration, moves slightly more air than your 50" K55-type Panama, but only due to the slight size advantage (which has a larger impact than most people think), but the power of both is around the same. And the DC Panama moves a bit more air than both, because of the fact that it has a 54" span. Again, its 165×25mm DC motor is similar in power to the aforementioned two. And I definitely agree about the Midway Eco. However, as far as the Modern Fan Co. stuff goes, I do have confirmation of a K55-type motor being present in the newer Pensi and Velo fans of their lineup...Many websites list a 28mm stack height induction motor for both the Pensi and Velo, like the Industry and Cirrus, which already made me think "hmph, that's odd...". When looking at the energy information for all four aforementioned fans, they all have a similar current draw in Watts on full blast compared to each other, and draw the most current of everything else in Modern Fan Co's lineup. When looking at the installation manuals of the Pensi and Velo, which happen to use real photographs of the fans during the installation process as opposed to renders and drawings, I noticed a small sticker on the assemblies of both the Pensi and Velo that says "GE-28"; I thought "hmm, that is interesting". So, I took a look at the manuals for the Cirrus and found that same "GE-28" sticker on the fan assembly. I looked at all of the other Modern Fan Co. product's installation manuals and found no such sticker; the Industry oddly didn't have one that I could see in the manual, but since it's the only one with a switch housing that contains capacitors and switches out of all of their products, said sticker could very well be located there. And from what Dan Neuman (among others) found out about both the Industry and Cirrus after working on them, the motor is a GE K55-type motor unit...and we know it's 28mm in stack height, like most K55-type motors made. Putting two and two together, I was able to deduce that the GE-28 sticker basically means that whatever fan with said sticker is using that GE K55-type motor. Also, the designs of both the Pensi and Velo and the way components fit together strongly back up my theory. And all of their K55-type products except for the Industry have motor housings too narrow to house their usual 153×18mm motor inside of them. Agreed most definitely about DC technology replacing others, like how the LED replaced the CFL...great analogy! Also interesting: Fanimation's FK2100/FDK2100 motor in their Islander and Palisades fans is 28mm in stack height, and has total dimensions of 125×28mm, like most K55-type motors. But, the actual K55 motor has a 25mm stack height, with dimensions being slightly different, at 140×25mm...both the actual K55 and said off-brand K55-type motors are the same size overall, however, both coming in at a large 3500mm² in total size.
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Post by Parkman on Jul 15, 2017 9:58:13 GMT -5
Its just like how V8 engines used to be in everything, now they are in trucks and some large SUV's occasionally a car. The mainstream now is turbo charged 4 cylinder engines and stuff that has more technology to it.
Do I like it? No, I prefer a V6 in any car I buy. It's fine for me as I buy trucks, however for my wife when we go to buy her next car when hers dies between how picky she is and the availability it could very well be a 4 cylinder because of the style of car she wants. Where I'm getting at this is technology is always progressing, we had at least a decade where ceiling fan technology was stagnant. Those who praise the IntelliTouch would have been very progressive in the 1980's where the traditionalists would want no computerizing of their ceiling fans. (If there was even collectors back then).
Personally I've always been much more open minded with most newer fans compared to many of the "older collectors" (I'm 25) but it seems that at least on YouTube everyones younger then me. But to me the DC motor although innovative, does not appeal to me. I guess I've finally become like Adam where I'm starting to hit my cut off point for fans I like and getting picky with the preferences. I feel that many of the companies are doing innovative things with design and all but many of them are starting to not appeal to me in the design or the technology...
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Post by Parkman on Jul 15, 2017 10:04:14 GMT -5
I do understand why the Premium Select was discontinued, Vince. It didn't make sense from a business perspective in the lineup because it was simply too expensive ($400-500) to move units. The Crown Select isn't much more expensive, but it still has purpose due to its design being ornate/other than plain. If one is spending $400 and up for a new ceiling fan, JUST offering solid air movement and an uplight is too little of a deal, so the Premium Select had little selling points...especially over the Penbrooke Select, which looks arguably better, fits into more décors, performs identically, and is about $100-$150 cheaper than the Premium Select was. The Penbrooke Select is probably the best-selling K55-type ceiling fan on the market today, since it has most all of the desirable traits for a solid ceiling fan, and has a more appealing price tag, in the low $300s (which is what the Casablanca Panama XLP 4-speed pull chain model sold for). Not to mention, but the Penbrooke Select has the option of having an uplight or not. So, it makes no sense to continue to produce a product that is inferior to another similar product in what it offers as a whole, for an increase in price. Essentially, the Penbrooke Select REPLACED the Premium Select in the lineup, now serving as a high-end K55XL ceiling fan that has an appealing price for what it offers and can fit in just about anywhere, due to it being among the most customizable (if not the sole most customizable) fans produced today... You can change not only the basics, like the color and the blades, but there are numerous of control methods for the fan, the option of an uplight or not, the 4/5 blade adaptability; combinations for the Penbrooke Select are almost endless, and the thing sells like hot cakes. Showrooms can't keep em in stock. And yes, there is the EcoMotor version, but the K55XL version has more finishes and overall options while selling for a good deal cheaper than the EcoMotor version. Emerson is most likely going to keep the Crown Select and the Penbrooke Select, along with their EcoMotor fans. The Penbrooke Select has numerous reasons for why it isn't going anywhere anytime soon, and the Crown Select has one main reason: The fact that it's a high-end ornate ceiling fan that performs very well and isn't priced completely outrageously. Noah you make an excellent point. I put together a Premium Select on their website once. For the potential reality that eventually my parents living room fans would need replacement (eventually). Without light kits the fans were over $700 a piece, granted you got nicer blades but why not just get a NOS Panama. The price is insane at retail for these. The Penbrooke Select, which I never knew existed and I thinks a nice looking fan, I had no idea was a K55XL fan. The price seems right, like the 4 Speed Panama's. When they were priced under $300 with standard blades.. They moved inventory! We used to have two showrooms that would sell Pull Chain Panamas with blades for between $200-$240. They would sell fantastically. Another few showrooms could charge anywhere between $450-$600 for the Pullchain model. I asked a few salespeople at those showrooms they said they'd sell anywhere between 1-10 in a year or explain they'd sell many more Four Seasons III's because of the price point. Very good post, Noah!
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Post by fancollector12 on Jul 20, 2017 1:54:05 GMT -5
I might be getting a Distinction DC (Fanimation) to replace my Panama... want more airflow and quieter operation (my XLP2000 Panama has made noise since I put it up, and I've heard the XLP2000 fans can be noisy sometimes right out of the box).
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Post by Noah C on Jul 21, 2017 12:01:39 GMT -5
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Post by fancollector12 on Jul 24, 2017 0:32:57 GMT -5
I want the 31-speed control. I can't go bigger than 60", though I think my 50" Panama looks small in my average-sized bedroom (not sure of the exact dimensions). A lot of the fans you listed don't have light kits, or at least adequate light kits, and that's a concern. I would still like to try a Distinction DC. 7680 CFM seems adequate as compared to my Panama's 5226 CFM on high speed. I won't be going with another XLP or K55 motor due to the fact that they're not "completely" silent, and they don't offer the same range (typically) of speeds ad a DC motor fan. I am impressed with my Appliance White Emerson Midway DC ECO's performance, but don't like that it doesn't take LED's with the odd GU24 base, and it's a bit too "modern" for my bedroom. I don't want papers flying around, but I do want a good performer. I sleep with my Panama on speed 4 out of 6 in the summer on Forward in the spring and summer months, and 3 out of the 6 on Reverse in the winter months, and it's pretty good at keeping the room cool or warm, but I wish it were more powerful, and less noisy.
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Post by Noah C on Jul 24, 2017 13:21:23 GMT -5
I want the 31-speed control. I can't go bigger than 60", though I think my 50" Panama looks small in my average-sized bedroom (not sure of the exact dimensions). A lot of the fans you listed don't have light kits, or at least adequate light kits, and that's a concern. I would still like to try a Distinction DC. 7680 CFM seems adequate as compared to my Panama's 5226 CFM on high speed. I won't be going with another XLP or K55 motor due to the fact that they're not "completely" silent, and they don't offer the same range (typically) of speeds ad a DC motor fan. I am impressed with my Appliance White Emerson Midway DC ECO's performance, but don't like that it doesn't take LED's with the odd GU24 base, and it's a bit too "modern" for my bedroom. I don't want papers flying around, but I do want a good performer. I sleep with my Panama on speed 4 out of 6 in the summer on Forward in the spring and summer months, and 3 out of the 6 on Reverse in the winter months, and it's pretty good at keeping the room cool or warm, but I wish it were more powerful, and less noisy. I know that 5,226 CFM is listed for the Panama II IT, but that seems awfully low, especially when it does about the same RPM as the 4-speed Panama II (in 50" span), rated at 6,228 CFM, which is somewhere around 3.8MPH wind speed on a 50" fan...impressive. The only way it would make sense for your Panama to have such a low CFM rating on full blast would be if it was tested with a 42" blade span...then that result would make perfect sense. The Distinction DC's rated 7,680 CFM is not for the 54" size, Vincent. This CFM rating would be achieved with the 60" span, and the 72" span provides a CFM in the high 8000s (EDIT: The 7,680 CFM rating is actually for the 72" size, and the 54" and 60" sizes are untested). The 54" size, given the power of the motor, would put out something around the mid 6,000s, which is proportionally similar in air movement to your 50" Panama II. The Avant Eco puts out around 7,000 CFMs at the 54" span, and from what I felt when I ran it at the showroom the other day (I forgot to take pictures :[), it is a beast. CFM at 60" span is somewhere around 8,000 when tested. The 16° blade pitch and wide blades really help, and the DC motor seems like it would be bigger and more powerful than the one in the Distinction, which is 158×22mm...I think that Emerson is using a 165mm DC motor, most likely something like 165×25mm in size. Honestly, if you want something more powerful than your Panama that also happens to be DC, I'd look at the Minka Aire Simple I linked earlier; sure, no 31-speed control, but the thing HAULS...over 4 MPH wind speed, over 7,000 CFM, 52". It does have an LED light kit available, if I'm not mistaken...OH, and it's cheaper in price than everything else. I still think your best bet for a really good DC motor fan would be the Avant Eco...likely more powerful than the Distinction DC, looks better, similar price, etc; I will tell you, Emerson's current 6-speed controls are intuitive and simple in the way they operate, and I think they NAILED it there. The 31 speed control seems like you have to press it a thousand times to make something happen, or to get it to the right setting...
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Post by Parkman on Jul 24, 2017 13:30:24 GMT -5
The Avant is definitely a better looking fan of the two.
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Post by Noah C on Jul 24, 2017 14:00:27 GMT -5
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Post by fancollector12 on Jul 24, 2017 23:42:05 GMT -5
I want the 31-speed control. I can't go bigger than 60", though I think my 50" Panama looks small in my average-sized bedroom (not sure of the exact dimensions). A lot of the fans you listed don't have light kits, or at least adequate light kits, and that's a concern. I would still like to try a Distinction DC. 7680 CFM seems adequate as compared to my Panama's 5226 CFM on high speed. I won't be going with another XLP or K55 motor due to the fact that they're not "completely" silent, and they don't offer the same range (typically) of speeds ad a DC motor fan. I am impressed with my Appliance White Emerson Midway DC ECO's performance, but don't like that it doesn't take LED's with the odd GU24 base, and it's a bit too "modern" for my bedroom. I don't want papers flying around, but I do want a good performer. I sleep with my Panama on speed 4 out of 6 in the summer on Forward in the spring and summer months, and 3 out of the 6 on Reverse in the winter months, and it's pretty good at keeping the room cool or warm, but I wish it were more powerful, and less noisy. I know that 5,226 CFM is listed for the Panama II IT, but that seems awfully low, especially when it does about the same RPM as the 4-speed Panama II (in 50" span), rated at 6,228 CFM, which is somewhere around 3.8MPH wind speed on a 50" fan...impressive. The only way it would make sense for your Panama to have such a low CFM rating on full blast would be if it was tested with a 42" blade span...then that result would make perfect sense. The Distinction DC's rated 7,680 CFM is not for the 54" size, Vincent. This CFM rating would be achieved with the 60" span, and the 72" span provides a CFM in the high 8000s (EDIT: The 7,680 CFM rating is actually for the 72" size, and the 54" and 60" sizes are untested). The 54" size, given the power of the motor, would put out something around the mid 6,000s, which is proportionally similar in air movement to your 50" Panama II. The Avant Eco puts out around 7,000 CFMs at the 54" span, and from what I felt when I ran it at the showroom the other day (I forgot to take pictures :[), it is a beast. CFM at 60" span is somewhere around 8,000 when tested. The 16° blade pitch and wide blades really help, and the DC motor seems like it would be bigger and more powerful than the one in the Distinction, which is 158×22mm...I think that Emerson is using a 165mm DC motor, most likely something like 165×25mm in size. Honestly, if you want something more powerful than your Panama that also happens to be DC, I'd look at the Minka Aire Simple I linked earlier; sure, no 31-speed control, but the thing HAULS...over 4 MPH wind speed, over 7,000 CFM, 52". It does have an LED light kit available, if I'm not mistaken...OH, and it's cheaper in price than everything else. I still think your best bet for a really good DC motor fan would be the Avant Eco...likely more powerful than the Distinction DC, looks better, similar price, etc; I will tell you, Emerson's current 6-speed controls are intuitive and simple in the way they operate, and I think they NAILED it there. The 31 speed control seems like you have to press it a thousand times to make something happen, or to get it to the right setting... Nope, I was gonna do a 60" anyways... that's the largest I can go in my average-sized bedroom. Right now my 50" Panama looks too small in my bedroom. I'm not gonna do the Minka Aire Simple because I need a light, and a 4-light kit as well... gonna do the Distinction D1 with the 4-light fitter. I think the 31-speed control will work well if I just want the aesthetic look, much like variable speed. Some collectors have gotten Fanimation Drones and like the almost infinitely variable speed control. The Avant Eco seems nice, but I like the integration of FanSync with that fan, too, and being able to control the fan from my Android smartphone. We'll have to see though.
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Post by Noah C on Jul 25, 2017 1:02:36 GMT -5
I know that 5,226 CFM is listed for the Panama II IT, but that seems awfully low, especially when it does about the same RPM as the 4-speed Panama II (in 50" span), rated at 6,228 CFM, which is somewhere around 3.8MPH wind speed on a 50" fan...impressive. The only way it would make sense for your Panama to have such a low CFM rating on full blast would be if it was tested with a 42" blade span...then that result would make perfect sense. The Distinction DC's rated 7,680 CFM is not for the 54" size, Vincent. This CFM rating would be achieved with the 60" span, and the 72" span provides a CFM in the high 8000s (EDIT: The 7,680 CFM rating is actually for the 72" size, and the 54" and 60" sizes are untested). The 54" size, given the power of the motor, would put out something around the mid 6,000s, which is proportionally similar in air movement to your 50" Panama II. The Avant Eco puts out around 7,000 CFMs at the 54" span, and from what I felt when I ran it at the showroom the other day (I forgot to take pictures :[), it is a beast. CFM at 60" span is somewhere around 8,000 when tested. The 16° blade pitch and wide blades really help, and the DC motor seems like it would be bigger and more powerful than the one in the Distinction, which is 158×22mm...I think that Emerson is using a 165mm DC motor, most likely something like 165×25mm in size. Honestly, if you want something more powerful than your Panama that also happens to be DC, I'd look at the Minka Aire Simple I linked earlier; sure, no 31-speed control, but the thing HAULS...over 4 MPH wind speed, over 7,000 CFM, 52". It does have an LED light kit available, if I'm not mistaken...OH, and it's cheaper in price than everything else. I still think your best bet for a really good DC motor fan would be the Avant Eco...likely more powerful than the Distinction DC, looks better, similar price, etc; I will tell you, Emerson's current 6-speed controls are intuitive and simple in the way they operate, and I think they NAILED it there. The 31 speed control seems like you have to press it a thousand times to make something happen, or to get it to the right setting... Nope, I was gonna do a 60" anyways... that's the largest I can go in my average-sized bedroom. Right now my 50" Panama looks too small in my bedroom. I'm not gonna do the Minka Aire Simple because I need a light, and a 4-light kit as well... gonna do the Distinction D1 with the 4-light fitter. I think the 31-speed control will work well if I just want the aesthetic look, much like variable speed. Some collectors have gotten Fanimation Drones and like the almost infinitely variable speed control. The Avant Eco seems nice, but I like the integration of FanSync with that fan, too, and being able to control the fan from my Android smartphone. We'll have to see though. I wouldn't do 60" for an average bedroom...10 inches in diameter makes a lot of difference, and two of the bedrooms of my house, both of average size (one is bigger than the other), have 50" (smaller) and 60" (larger) fans respectively. The 50" fan looks a wee bit small as well, and I can tell a subtle difference in size between it and my Supra in my bedroom, which is 52" and is adequately sized for my bedroom. The bedroom across from the aforementioned one has a 60" fan in it currently, just until I can repair something else that is going to go back up in there. And the 60" span is too big; it looks awkwardly large, and when the fan is running at any decent speed, even in the average size bedroom it's currently in, it sways to its own breeze a little. Honestly, a fair middle ground/balance would be 54", Vince...this would be reasonably sized for an average size bedroom, and this is the size of the fan that will replace said 60" fan currently there, in the bedroom of my house I mentioned. At 60" span, given what the DC Distinction is capable of in 72" span, I'd say that you'd get somewhere in the lower-mid 7000s as far as CFM goes. And in 54" span, likely somewhere in the mid 6000s; a bit better than the 188×25mm Distinction. And yes, I know you want the aesthetic low and the almost infinitely variable control. However, you're probably going to get a similar low on the Distinction DC to what I got out of the Avant Eco (50-ish RPM). The reason why such an aesthetic low is possible on the Drone is because of the blade design...3 blades going at similar RPM to 5 blades already looks a fair bit slower to the human eye because of the increased amount of space between each blade, and the way the blades are curved on the Drone causes the fan to spin at a relatively low RPM (even while moving a ton of air) throughout its range. It's up to you whether this modernized "Variable Speed DC Inteli-Touch throwback remote control" is superior to the simpler 6-speed controls we normally see with DC fans...and the ability to control it with your smartphone. Even with that in tow, I personally would still go for the Avant Eco in 54" span for the better performance it would provide over the Distinction DC, or even the Carrera Grande Eco, which is slightly cheaper than both of them. There are 4-light kits available for those, too. Or, I could also suggest you take a look at the Big Island (motor only); it has a more powerful DC motor than all of them, and would probably be able to handle a 52" blade span at a 20° pitch without a problem. There are also 4-light kits available in the same finish as that, and therefore shouldn't be hard to find.
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