End of life on LED fixtures

[Patrick]

So, with the proliferation of LED fixtures, what do you do when an integrated LED fixture eventually burns out? Do you chuck the fixture as seems to be the protocol for pretty much any commercial institutions fluorescent upgrades to LED? It seems no one has provision for the LEDs either burning out prematurely or some other deficiency that causes them to fail. The concept of the replacable bulb (or LED element in this case) seems to be gone, and in my opinion this method of business seems incredibly wasteful (Which is a reflection of our society anyhow). The physical footprint of the LED element is way less than that of the whole fixture, and you might argue that it is less impact on landfills than tons of broken fluorescent bulbs, although I do realize that manufacturing LEDs isn't without environmental impact either. What are your opinions, reflections, or experiences?


Patrick

[Cole D]

That's very true. I think a lot of it has to do with the throwaway manufacturing ideology that's popular these days. Also, I know at least in their earlier years LED was meant to be a "forever" type of technology that wasn't supposed to burn out like other types of light sources. I guess they last long enough that the manufacturers assume by the point that they do, the fixture will have been replaced because of decor changes, etc.

It seems in some cases LED quickly grew from being a novelty to being a major light source without being perfected and standardized first.

[Max C.]

Patrick, this is quite a fascinating topic which probably deserves more attention than its currently getting.  I cannot shake the feeling that (maybe some) have been a tad too enthusiastic about the light source; integrated modules being one example.

In the past, people have asked "what happens when the light module burns out?"  Every time, its an "uhh...well, LEDs are supposed to last a long time, but...uh, maybe you could call the manufacturer if it does ever burn out."  Personally, this philosophy never sat 100% right with me, which is why every fixture installed around the house uses inherently-replaceable light bulbs. Traditionally, a burnt-out light bulb was a trivial matter that was corrected after about five minutes and maybe some pocket change.  With a highly-proprietary $78.00 LED module that requires special ordering, you could quite literally be left in the dark until replacing the module or even the fixture.

Another noteworthy point - LEDs inherently differ from virtually any other light source.  Due to the frequency of light produced, they actually illuminate objects more directly, while (in a way) bypassing the air space around them.  This is a tremendous advantage for efficiency's-sake, however it is not without challenge.  While a properly-designed setup can produce highly-satisfying results, there is should be an emphasis on properly   For example, have you ever noticed how certain (particularly early) LEDs may appear to produce "shadowy-light" when running?  This (in my opinion) is a clear example as to what may happen when the planning-stage of LED lighting schemes are glossed over and goes along with what Cole mentioned about "novelty."

Equally thought-provoking is the massive push exclusively for LED technology.  Sure, they last far longer are more efficient than other (traditional light sources).  However, why the lack of interest with pursuing technologies such as UCD or plasma lighting (excuse the cheesy videos)?

On the contrary and for the sake of being fair though, 2017 did prove to be quite the Quantum Leap for LED technology (including including integrated-modules. It seems, many of the previous issues experienced have been addressed. If nothing else, what we have in our ceiling fans today has significantly improved compared to five years ago. In short - its unlikely that great numbers would fail before their rated life, its just that replacement of a failed module may be (by-design) almost impossible.

[Cole S.]

I'm late to the party here, but I do echo a lot of the sentiments here. Replacing an led module isn't as easy as opening the cabinet to grab a spare bulb. I've still been very careful in trying to go all LED at my parents' place as far as what we choose, because I don't want to make a big investment in integrated fixtures that WILL fail someday. I've gone with relatively cheap but nice quality Kichler LED discs where I've added general ceiling lighting, and same with the Kobi under cabinet lights in the kitchen. I just bought another integrated LED fixture that will go in the back hallway, but beyond that I'm sticking with a lot of things that are not integrated, especially where more investment is concerned. For the Kichler LEDs, I have a spare of each color temperature I've purchased for the circumstance that one fails, so I don't have to replace them all again just because one went out. A bigger issue is that you can hardly even get a replacement with the technology evolving so quickly, products are discontinued practically before you get them installed. But again, I have like $11 a piece in my spares and they're in a tiny box, not too big of a deal to keep a spare. When we're talking $1000 integrated chandeliers, it's a little hard to keep a spare of that...

Specifically on the ceiling fan end, yeah, I've been working with a lot of new products that have a module. I feel a little better about those, I think manufacturers will be able to support plug and play modules even as technology continues to grow and change. Yes, there is that delay in getting replacements, but at least it's feasible. Perhaps local lighting distributors will have to look into carrying some limited stock, or more generic replacements will become a thing. The cost is still concerning, but what are you gonna do. I do have a couple integrated LED fans installed for my parents, and honestly the LED failure is always at the back of my mind, but I just have to push it down and accept that it's the direction things are going. I do enjoy the benefits that LED provides. It's more concerning to me when you get into specific fixtures, parts, and components that will certainly only have a manufacturing lifespan of a few years. I don't care what kind of warranty it has, there's no way you can maintain that kind of parts inventory for every discontinued product. Even with a great warranty it's still messy. I'm an honorary member of the Lighting Showroom Coalition, which is a group of lighting industry professionals with a mutual goal of helping each other and bettering the overall industry. Someone there recently posted about how they had the first experience of selling a customer a replacement integrated LED pendant because theirs had just gone out of warranty. It was either buy one, or replace them all, because it was a set, and you can believe the customer wasn't too happy. I'm not really down with that, and even when you get a replacement, the color temperature is bound to be slightly different just due to manufacturing batch differences and continual upgrading of the technologies being implemented. So you're still screwed. There's been feedback from a lot of LSC members that they don't really push integrated stuff. They certainly carry it and those lines because they have to, it's what a lot of customers want, but they are not up-selling it. Because, guess what? They get to deal with the warranty claims and unhappy customers when it fails. By the same token, I'm sure there are plenty that do push those products.

As far as the reliance on LED specifically, I think the technology that proves itself is what everyone is going to run with every time, and we drop all interest in any other options. It was the same thing when CFLs went mainstream, albeit without the ban on incandescents lol. IDK if I'm translating that thought into text the way I want to, I hope you get my general idea.

Also as far as the disposability, I'm not sure I'm cool with that aspect either. Jury's still out for me until we can actually get more data on how reliable the products are overall as a category. I realize it's not necessarily a 1 for 1 kind of thing considering the differences in makeup, but in general you could throw out a lot of shorter life bulbs before you throw out one LED bulb or fixture. I suppose the recyclability of LED fixtures and components is another thing to consider looking at, as well. I'm not really for the concept of planned obsolescence, but this is a category where it's hard for me to draw the line when the thing itself has already done its part to save some energy and other waste that would've come before it.

[Cole D]

I just don't really understand why the LED boards need to be integrated into the fixture. Medium base socket have been around for over a century now and they work. There have been all kinds of lighting technologies that use it, why does the form factor have to change that just because it's an LED? And it's not like LED will be the last lighting technology ever, they come and go. Right now it's what everyone's on about, and after decades they're finally perfected, but that's not to say in 100 years everyone will still be using it. Look what happened with incandescents.

Also, I'm not too happy about the aspect where they want to ban everything but LED. There are so many lighting technologies. You have incandescent, halogen, fluorescent, HID and its types. The bans in my opinion are going too far and of course LED manufacturers want to make all kinds of reasons for it because it will get them all more money.

I don't think CFLs were all that environmentally friendly with the mercury and each having to have a ballast in the base. But not all lighting technologies are as unfriendly to the environment or inefficient as they're claiming. I think some of it is just made up to push the technology further and further along.

I'm not against LED. I think for many things it's greater. But I'd like to still have a choice.

[Cole S.]

Well, a multitude of designs are absolutely impossible to produce with a medium base socket, or any socket at all for that matter. Integrated LED makes a lot possible, and I like the vast majority of what has been made possible, but that doesn't mean that I don't question it or have concerns. I'm always excited to see what'll be done next but hold reservations. And I agree, it's been proven that nothing is forever, but it's all about the here and now.

I'm all for consumer choice, I don't think bans are the answer either. Same thing with all the government regulation on ceiling fans themselves, all this effort for something that is already quite efficient. Then they go and make the CFM standard more confusing than it's ever been before. So much wasted time on things that don't matter.

Again I agree on the CFL front, but in the here and now the benefits are always pushed. Consumers are always hesitant to embrace these kinds of changes, there has to be a lot of hype to drive interest and get people to try something different. I'm not gonna go as far as saying we're drowning in false information, though.

I think regardless of anything else, we can agree on having a choice. I'm not really for or against one thing over anything else for the sake of argument, and don't care what anybody else wants to do. I've made my choice, you should make yours. By that same token, I don't want anyone trying to tell ME what I should or shouldn't like or choose. That's what drives me crazy more than anything.

[Cole D]

It's really not all that different than 10 years ago. I remember buying a lamp that had a socket so it would only take CFLs. So they were really pushing them. If LEDs were developed to where they are now, 10 years ago they would be using them instead. And I remember the wattage limiters and candelabra sockets we were talking about.

I get that LEDs are more efficient and I know incandescent aren't. I probably won't keep using them when my supply goes out, I will probably go with the LEDs. They all have their good and bad points, I don't think any lighting source is perfect. I just think the market should decide what is sold, leave it up to the consumer as long as they're not hurting anyone with it. I don't want them telling me what to use either.