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Post by Cole D on Apr 20, 2019 12:13:16 GMT -5
I wanted to make a new thread to not derail the Panama/Paramount XP thread.
What do you think Hunter's plan is for the Originals in the future? Their current lineup is just the 52" 4/5 blade models in matte black, chestnut brown or white. Really that's a decent but succinct lineup with the most classic finishes, and with the 4/5 blade option and the damp rated blades, I'd say it's pretty flexible for most any installation.
But they did of course discontinue the 42" Originals and the Archive and Hotel Originals. Which is unfortunate because those were very nice fans too and I thought around 2008 which I think was when the Hotel Original came out (maybe 2005?) they were making some nice designs that hearkened back to the old days of the early R&M fans. Especially with the Adaptair blades they offered with the Hotel and later versions of the Archive. I was never that crazy about the distressed blades that look similar to those on the Panama XLP they're selling though. I think they were on the Cocoa finish a few years ago.
But now they seem to have scaled them back a lot to just the core standard model, and discontinued finishes like weathered brick, iron, brushed nickel, etc. Which of course bronze, brushed nickel and chrome are very popular finishes now, so they may be missing out on some buyers looking for that style.
I just think the Original wasn't selling that well, and hence it moved out of the home centers. It was only back for a short time at Lowes, it just won't sell in that environment. Plus today's younger people like my age that are starting to get into buying homes and fans probably aren't that interested in the performance or how a fan is built but more so the looks. And many probably don't know what the Hunter Original is compared to older generations.
Many people today are all about looks and either having no fan or a fan that doesn't look like a fan is the big push of the TV decorating shows of the last 15 or 20 years unfortunately.
I think most likely Hunter will keep offering the Original in the lineup but it will probably stay in its scaled back form of 52" only in the three finishes unless they start adding a few more decorative ones.
It was surprising to me too that Kichler made the Fryst, an Original copy. There hadn't been an Original copy in probably what, 20 years? So I was a little interested to see that. Of course I liked those cast GE vent fans too with the big spinner, I forget who makes them.
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Post by Parkman on Apr 20, 2019 13:06:45 GMT -5
I am a subscriber to Hunter Fans on YouTube. They just did a video of them on them so I think thats safe to say its safe.
If they were still Made in the USA, I would say they'll be going eventually but I think they are safe. I'm truly surprised that they DON'T make a brushed nickel version currently. I think they are missing a niche in the market. The whole as my Dad calls it warehouse look (Industrial/contemporary) look is big right now, throw a trendy finish on the Original or in a Cocoa finish and I think it could become trendy because its a unique design.
And I just read your post about the finishes there lol. I think it was to expensive to be at a Home Center. The whole you have to make $X amount of money per square foot at these large national places I think couldn't compete with the fact the Original is a unique product that has a customer base but average Joe consumer isn't going to buy it especially with its weight, lack of compatibility with many light kits, and that it can't be flushmounted, or put on an angled ceiling.
I think the only thing we would potentially see is new finishes but I think it'll be stagnant at this point. I don't see 42" ones coming back as mid sized fans aren't "trendy" right now people think a full size fan is 52" and the large fan market is big right now.
The Fryst is unique but I think the difference is Kichler is gonna follow trends regardless. Hunter has a giant following on the Original, I know people who know nothing about fans, electric,etc. but they know a cast iron fan is indestructible. The fact it probably only costs $25 or something in China to make one and all is a plus towards the giant markup they have but also that model is symbolic for what Hunter is and has been despite the horrendous decline in quality. Its kind of like Ford getting rid of all there sedans, they kept the Mustang because its a symbol of Ford, Ford's racing division, etc.
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Post by Cole D on Apr 20, 2019 14:24:32 GMT -5
The Fryst I don't think was made very long. I don't think it was a great seller most likely. But I like the blades on it and it does have a thick metal housing and a substantial 188mm spinner motor. I would have liked it to have a more decorative pattern on the bottom motor plate instead of the big square vents. Also it would have looked better with a bell shaped canopy rather than the rather flat one it has.
There are some on eBay for decent prices... around $110 with free shipping. I watched Dan's video on it. They would be a pretty good performing fan though the RPMs were lower. Originally they were around $300 which was too much to me for what they were.
The Original is to Hunter sort-of what the Panama is to Casablanca. I don't see either going away. Although they did get rid of the Victorian which was more along the lines of their Original. But the Victorian I just don't think fit as well into most decors these days. In the mid-late 2000s when the Tuscan look was big, it would have fit pretty well.
I agree with you the Original has a good modern industrial look. It's unfortunate it isn't used more often in that decor, but I think fans that have a more modern look tend to be what people are after for that style. Three blades/big clear glass with LED bulbs, etc.
The Rejuvenation Heron (what I was trying to think of in my first post) fits those decors pretty well, but they're also very expensive. They're kind of built like the Fryst (heavier housing, bigger spinner motor).
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Post by Parkman on Apr 20, 2019 14:30:31 GMT -5
I didn't even realize that they were discontinued. I remember watching Dan's video thinking they were cool but couldn't see myself owning one since they're way too much to pay retail for and will probably never be found in a thrift store or goodwill. Good point. I don't see the Panama going anywhere either, I think with the redesign and now the motor change.. The dust will start to settle and it will continue to be there mainstream fan as many showrooms made bundles off them. I think the Panama is definitely more secure now that the Four Seasons III is gone because besides the point they have no diluting of there brand anymore the Panama can be there volume seller while when they had the Four Seasons II/III that could be the big money maker because you were paying for the name rather than paying a ton but getting the quality. I feel the Victorian WILL come back eventually. Maybe not today or tomorrow but that style will come back and they'll money. At least they killed it off before changing the motor in it. I hate these new styles. Some are neat I'll give it to them but I don't see myself buying them. All this talk of Paramount XP's as of late is striking my interest again as they came out back when I was around 11 so to me that era of fans really get my interest going again. I'm debating buying one right now in Bronze but I need to sell a few things and get some "Fan Funds" and some space in my workshop. I remember them. I like those but the price just isn't happening
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Post by Noah C on Apr 20, 2019 15:50:56 GMT -5
If this were 2014, when Hunter Originals sucked (in my opinion) for how expensive they were compared to Panamas or anything top-end spinner motor/K55-type, I'd be lamenting over the decline in what the Original used to be. However, with 2015's revisions of the Hunter Original, I must say that the Hunter Original is a formidable classic again. I wouldn't buy one for $499, but I would for maybe $250 or so (when the occasional open box fan ads pop up), if I had someplace to put one. With the revisions Hunter made (like the re-inclusion of a 4" main bearing shaft and what I'm guessing is a slight retooling of the current draw dynamic), the current Original performs almost to the level of the USA made originals; maybe around a 10 RPM difference between the current and "home-made" Originals. The low speed still isn't as nice as the US Originals, but it's better than the low speed on the first gen imported Originals. The PVC overlay on the blades is a nice touch, too, making the blades a bit more warp resistant.
I think the Original is safe. They may eventually add finishes like Brushed Nickel and Bronze and such to the lineup, and sell the Brushed Nickel Original like it's a new thing, but they are likely waiting for their other releases to overshadow the Original so that the change appears more exciting. They will likely not bring back any other Originals, unless it is a limited time only deal, which is still unlikely. The 42" Original had no real reason to exist; it looked nice but was a dud in terms of performance. Plus, the small fan market has receded lately as smaller residences shift more to open-concept space arrangements allowing larger fans to be used.
The Panama is a little different from the Original in its place in Casablanca's lineup IMO. The Panama is kind of like Emerson's Premium in that it's the most basic-looking fan they sell in their lineup of high-quality customizable fans. The Original is Hunter's bread and butter in a manner more similar to the up-and-coming Star Fans' Propeller will be when Star Fans expands their US lineup. It will stay since it has evolved with whatever Casablanca was doing through the times since its inception.
There was simply no market for the Fryst, being that the Fryst was expensive, uglier than the Original, and didn't perform that great. It's been discontinued for around two years I believe. When it comes to the modern/industrial look, I actually really like this new aesthetic the market is shifting to, I can't lie.
The Rejuvenaton Heron is a nice looking fan that seems to perform better than what the spec sheet suggests (seems to be a conservative estimate). It's more expensive than the Original, which sucks. Looks nice, though.
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Post by Cole D on Apr 20, 2019 17:02:54 GMT -5
Do you know why the Fryst didn't perform well? It has a good size 188mm x 25mm motor, of course that doesn't mean it will be great I know. Or was it the blade pitch or capacitor values that caused it? I know the RPMs weren't that high either.
I was thinking of getting one possibly if I can for under $80 or $100. But if it's not a great fan, I'll pass. Also do you know how heavy they are compared to an Original?
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Post by Parkman on Apr 20, 2019 17:26:26 GMT -5
Cole are you looking for anything in particular? I'm gonna be selling some stuff soon. Some used some new. Prices all over the place.
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dano
Junior Member
Posts: 140
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Post by dano on Apr 20, 2019 22:25:14 GMT -5
It appears the latest originals get more love than the prior Asian produced models. Maybe I'm missing something but with the same blade span and same pitch, is there any other variable to push more CFM than just increasing the rpm's? I'm reading the specs on the latest one and they are 213/125/80. My box only has the CFM and wattage but my low RPM is 50 by timing it, and the medium appears to be around 100. This would very close to the paramount listed RPM of 188/101/50 so maybe they just shifted the curve up (but I'm just guessing at high because I can't count them).
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Post by Cole D on Apr 20, 2019 22:58:41 GMT -5
I remember Noah saying that Hunter did shorten the blade brackets by 1" and slightly changed the blades with the 2015 changes. That allowed a 600 CFM increase over previous Chinese models. There apparently were some motor changes as well as seen above.
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Post by Noah C on Apr 20, 2019 23:20:15 GMT -5
I remember Noah saying that Hunter did shorten the blade brackets by 1" and slightly changed the blades with the 2015 changes. That allowed a 600 CFM increase over previous Chinese models. There apparently were some motor changes as well as seen above. This was when I was looking at the redesigned brackets that Hunter's press released images of the new original had. But, the new Original has brackets that look basically the same as the old ones as opposed to those goofy looking ones from the press releases. The CFM and RPM increases do have some weight to them but I have shifted away from putting so much weight on the accuracy of those, like I did in the past. With raw fan airflow, it usually can be filtered down to blade span, proportions of the fan, blade shape and pitch, and RPM. Minute CFM differences seldom translate into real life, especially for fans with similar blade pitch and RPM. The motor changes (as mentioned in my last post on this thread) are the addition of a 4" main bearing shaft, like the USA made originals, and the new Original seems to have slightly different current draw characteristics. There may be other changes that I have since forgotten about.
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Post by Cole D on Apr 20, 2019 23:32:56 GMT -5
I remember Noah saying that Hunter did shorten the blade brackets by 1" and slightly changed the blades with the 2015 changes. That allowed a 600 CFM increase over previous Chinese models. There apparently were some motor changes as well as seen above. This was when I was looking at the redesigned brackets that Hunter's press released images of the new original had. But, the new Original has brackets that look basically the same as the old ones as opposed to those goofy looking ones from the press releases. The CFM and RPM increases do have some weight to them but I have shifted away from putting so much weight on the accuracy of those, like I did in the past. With raw fan airflow, it usually can be filtered down to blade span, proportions of the fan, blade shape and pitch, and RPM. Minute CFM differences seldom translate into real life, especially for fans with similar blade pitch and RPM. The motor changes (as mentioned in my last post on this thread) are the addition of a 4" main bearing shaft, like the USA made originals, and the new Original seems to have slightly different current draw characteristics. There may be other changes that I have since forgotten about. I see. I do remember hearing that now on the brackets being not accurate in the pictures to how they truly are.
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Post by Cole D on Apr 20, 2019 23:34:48 GMT -5
Here are some Kichler Frysts at Dollywood. I think they look pretty good here, but they don't seem to be outdoor rated for this use. Apparently though they replaced Fasco Charlestons and American Spirits, which typically weren't rated for this either. A shame they got replaced still.
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Post by Noah C on Apr 21, 2019 0:02:31 GMT -5
Do you know why the Fryst didn't perform well? It has a good size 188mm x 25mm motor, of course that doesn't mean it will be great I know. Or was it the blade pitch or capacitor values that caused it? I know the RPMs weren't that high either. I was thinking of getting one possibly if I can for under $80 or $100. But if it's not a great fan, I'll pass. Also do you know how heavy they are compared to an Original? The problem for the Fryst was that its motor was tuned for too low of a current draw. Capacitor values are insignificant on a normal AC fan when it is running on high speed---power is routed directly to the motor on a fan's high speed. For a 188×25mm motor to perform the way you'd expect, the motor should be drawing at least .7 or .8 amps of current with the load of 5 blades at a normal blade span; the Fryst only draws, what, around 75 watts on high? That's around .62 amps; that's the current draw I get out of my Minka Aire Supra with a 188×15mm motor; the Fryst has low blade pitch too. The 188×25mm unit they were using for the Fryst likely was weak AND too torquey (power=torque×speed so meaning too slow) for the application. It appears the latest originals get more love than the prior Asian produced models. Maybe I'm missing something but with the same blade span and same pitch, is there any other variable to push more CFM than just increasing the rpm's? I'm reading the specs on the latest one and they are 213/125/80. My box only has the CFM and wattage but my low RPM is 50 by timing it, and the medium appears to be around 100. This would very close to the paramount listed RPM of 188/101/50 so maybe they just shifted the curve up (but I'm just guessing at high because I can't count them). Current Taiwanese-made (2nd gen) Originals get more love than the Taiwanese made Originals (1st gen) made between 2002-2014 because the modifications made to the 2nd gen have all made the performance and overall product better. All they needed to do was make the fan a bit faster, since the Original's blade pitch has always been 15°. US made Originals went around 210-215 RPMs on high speed, and when Hunter first switched to overseas manufacturing and the skeletal motor (1st gen) in 2002, the RPM on high dropped to around 180 or so (the listed RPM was 197 but listed RPMs are just estimates). ~180 RPM with a 15° blade pitch still yields solid airflow, but with one of the main buying points of the Original through the '80s and '90s being superior performance over what comparable K55-type fans offered no longer being justifiable and the hardcore "MANUFACTURE THINGS IN THE US OF A" crowd being alienated, people turned away from the 1st gen of import Originals which were more expensive than, heavier than, and performed no better than K55-type fans sold at the same time. The 2nd gen imported Original is still expensive, but it has recaptured close to the same performance that was a selling point for USA originals. Newer ones do around 200-205 RPM on high speed, which paired with the 15° blade pitch, gives performance that is in the ballpark of older US made Originals. Side note: it would be nice if they still made them in the Iron finish...they only have brown, black, and white as of now.
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Post by Jonathan A. on Apr 21, 2019 19:49:07 GMT -5
Current Hunter Original are 52" with 5 blades, and 51" with 4 blades. Ones of my relatives have white 2016 Hunter Original installed in porch. They bought them last year at Amazon.com, which was about 2 years after those fans are made so those fans were sitting and sitting for 2 years before they were shipped. They wanted them remote controlled so they bought the remote kit for them and I have to say that remotes actually give them slower low speed! Here's my videos of them, since they are the only demonstration videos of current generation of Hunter Original on YouTube. I have to say that with 5 blades, they spin a bit slower than pre-2002 Original. With 4 blades (blade configuration that would blow most air), it's about the same, and with 2 blades, it's faster than pre-2002 Original. Pre-2002 Original has 28 pole motor so it's like low gear motor (slow but strong). Maximum speed on those motor is 257 1/7 RPM on 60hz, and high speed with blades get about 80% to max RPM. I only have one Hunter Original and it's 22272 from 1980, but it seems like it needs new blades because blades seem warped and one is like splitting. But hey, the motor is what's most important! I am a subscriber to Hunter Fans on YouTube. I'm a subscriber too, and they did subscribe to my channel too on August 9, 2013.
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Post by Cole D on Apr 21, 2019 22:07:38 GMT -5
Cole are you looking for anything in particular? I'm gonna be selling some stuff soon. Some used some new. Prices all over the place. Mostly 90s Laskos 36", 42", 52". Possibly small GE vent fans.
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